The evolution of the Red Ajah

[Sunny]

The defining purpose of a Green is to prepare for the Last Battle. They are the Battle Ajah. That is who they are. Two Greens may go about that particular purpose in different ways, but the purpose remains the same.

I am not seeing the same kind of unifying cause from Red. Or rather- I'm not seeing one that can be believably projected into the future without a great deal of chaos and bloodshed. It's important to talk about it out of character, because we as writers have much longer vision than our characters do. Writers of Reds can compare notes, for instance. Those who do not currently write Reds can offer their perspective and opinions. We can project into the future what is likely to happen from a creative standpoint. All of that will help us to develop even further, and become truly dynamic.

[Carra]

I'm not sure how "Finding and Creating Balance" isn't tangible enough?

[Sunny]

It's tangible. However, in my opinion it isn't sustainable; I listed out why in my original post.


I also think it's not inherently unique from the other Ajahs- any other Ajah could argue that their reason for existing is to preserve the balance of the world -Browns by retaining knowledge, Greys by maintaining peace, Blues by pursuing what they feel is important, Greens by preparing for TG so the world doesn't get over run...etc. see what I mean?

[Siera]

Kinda if along the lines of what Carra was saying...

If Red was a fully fledged Ajah one character changing their POV would not change the rest of the Ajah. Obviously something within the description is calling to characters as I believe Red has the most aspirants (having gained two in the last month or so). They have the most recent ones anyway, so something is working.i see the reasoning behind the balance and have a plan on how Liri fits in Red.

There is always going to be an imbalance so i don't see how this won't work in the long run? Having a perfectly balanced world would be boring and i see this as a reason that will stand long. After All Green is for preparing for the Last Battle and one day that will come. Whereas the world would never be balanced in some way shape or form

[Carra]

I remember you having similar arguments before when the Ajah was first proposed to the Hall. It succeeded and has grown to 4, while other Ajah's have no one. I understand your concern and it's longevity... but at the same time, respectfully, having a concrete idea isn't working for other Ajah's in the same light. I don't see why forcing a specific ideal, outside what has been suggested, will keep the Ajah around any more than the other Ajah's in the Tower.

[Bridget]

I agree with the idea that a more concrete understanding of the Red Ajah's purpose would be very helpful to discuss OOC. Not everyone reads every thread, so things that are being built or will be built in the future for the Red Ajah should have an OOC write up so that everyone can understand. That said, I also think it is very important to clarify the purpose of the Red Ajah. I do think that the Red Ajah is currently very... muddled. If someone asked me what it stands for, I honestly wouldn't be able to tell them. And I've read a lot of what is currently up for the Red, and am interested in knowing more about them for one of my characters.

I do also think that it is important for each Ajah to have a purpose. I don't think this is to keep up membership or anything like that; honestly the Red is doing really well right now, and is very new and exciting. But, canon wise, and even in GT canon with the Indigo, each Ajah has a specific and concrete purpose. I would like to see the Red have the same thing, and personally find "finding and creating balance" to be entirely intangible. What do you mean by that?

[Jenny]

Carra, I apologize if the original concept of the Red has been overlooked. I hope to not make that mistake again. Please let me know if I do. I spent a few hours reading Carraidhin Sedai's fanfictions, as well as browsing a few other sites to gather some more thoughts on the Red Ajah. My attempt is to offer a neutral opinion.

Like Bridget, I still don't understand what "Finding and Creating Balance" means. The Wheel weaves as it wills, and it creates balance whether we like it or not. This is a running theme in the WoT books. "Protecting and Serving Humanity" is also a goal that is certainly not limited to the Red; every single Ajah attempts to do this. Aes Sedai means "Servants of All," while Asha'man means "Guardian".

Waymon also pointed out in his post that:

From the description, it seems almost the Reds were forced into the role that attempts to keep with canon as ‘hunters’ but then looks like to wants to be assassins with One Power flair.

As Marla wrote in her first post, this will lead to IC bloodshed and the isolation of the Red. Is this really what Protecting and Serving Humanity means? It does not seem to be a satisfactory purpose.

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The purpose of this thread appears to be twofold. First, is to present a problem. Second, is to fix it. Perhaps we should make it a rule that every post must also offer something constructive, even if it is silly, instead of simply shooting down every suggestion like a Two Rivers bowman.

Anyways, here are more thoughts. Thought #1: Carra had a very interesting sentence in one of her posts: "It [the Red Ajah] gives voice to those that don't fit in those other groups, under the ideals of Balance, Humanity and doing what is right even if it isn't always good." I am particularly interested in “Doing what is right even if it isn’t always good.” I think that this statement can be more clearly defined. Can we do so while still distinguishing it from the Blue? The Blue Ajah pursues justice and righteousness and are "Seekers after Causes." What is the difference between the righteousness of Reds and the righteousness of Blues?

Thought #2: In the books, the Red Ajah is also the Ajah that hates Darkfriends with the hottest passion. Could we possibly work this in to retain the idea of the Red Ajah as hunters? I realize that the current mission includes hunting "rouge" channelers. This doesn't seem to make sense since most sisters and brothers completely deny the existence of the Black Ajah. Instead, I propose to change this mission to hunting Darkfriends. We'd have to come up with something that would prevent the Ajah from becoming as corrupt as the Children of the Light.

Thought #3: In my opinion, sending members of the Red Ajah off as assassins is not realistic. Frankly, it is quite frightening. Is this something that we wish to retain?

[Sunny]

I can offer explanation on that, Jenny.

The "Balance" thing refers to the Red Ajah focusing on maintaining the balance between Shadow and Light. In order to do so, they may need to do things that would not be morally considered 'good' (for instance, assassinating someone). So the two things (Keeping Balance, and "the right thing may not be the good thing") tie closely together. You voiced my concerns (Both about how confusing it is to those who are not actively involved in the Ajah, and about the potential for trouble) much better than I did.

For Thought #2 - I dunno, it could be kind of entertaining to see the Whitecloaks and the Reds squared off in an unholy war with "Darkfriends". <_< Buuuut again, I think any Ajah that openly condones using not-so-Light-focused methods is going to result in attracting the enemy, given how sneaky the enemy actually is in the world of WoT.


Another thing that is not being taken into full consideration is exactly how strong the ill will towards the Red Ajah really is at GT, historically speaking. I could see the Hall allowing a new Red Ajah on grounds of furthering relations between men and women, or even (theoretically) on hunting rogue channelers, or a number of other non-threatening reasons....but I can't see it allowing a Red Ajah to remain if it openly condones use of the tactics of the Shadow, especially if that Ajah also happens to want to have/build its own separate living area away from the Tower.

That's why I'm kind of hoping that discussion will allow us to find the best of all worlds, and move forward with something that works for the whole site.



As for #3- I agree.

[Carra]

One quick note on "Rogue Channelers" before I go to bed. There are not one, not two, but three Towers. There is no Taint in Saidin. Rogue Channelers have a completely different meaning in our GT then they do in the books. When there are towers that can offer all sorts of options, the idea of someone being a rogue would have to be.. someone escaping the law during or after training. While totally a plausible reason... it's also not nearly so important of one to base an entire Ajah on.

#3 - I don't know. I don't think it's unrealistic to have a select few available for that but would likely have to be something to keep in check. I like dirty little secrets, but an entire Ajah? No, possibly not. But it is where I put my Red's skills.


From my perspective, as the first of the Red... I didn't do this to make an assassin ajah. Yes, there are elements, but I really wanted to have a character that thought outside the box and build a foundation of something that sort of kept things in check. Not all that serve the shadow are bad, and not all that serve the light are good. And I really liked the idea of creating a character.. and then now an Ajah that protected the balance between them both. Instead of being wholly blinded by the Light or the Shadow. If asked, Carra will admit to serving neither. Which is always a fun ploy IC.

See, A lot of what I wanted to build with the Red are things In Character. In character drama, in character confusion, in character growth and discovery. The Indigo had a set purpose when it was created here, but how often.. on ANY WoT site do we see a NEW Ajah evolve where others are already set? It was curious to me and looking at the activity and interest... it works.

Now, I'm a big fan of clarity. I can see where you all are coming from with trying to figure out the set purpose of the Red Ajah. And what this is going to do is force me to push my character into a box that she might not fit. Hunt down rogue channelers? Waste of her time. Studying Channeling between male and female channelers? Give that task to the Indigo. It's a boring thing and gives very little plot options to play with. (Edit: Not that I'm saying YOU (a player) with your character can't join Red and do just that. Go for it! I'm just stating that it might not be for everyone..)

An Ajah that is learning to discover a place in the Tower, IC (and OOC), while trying to stay true to themselves, to each other, the Tower without becoming something they are fighting against? Now that's something fun to write about. And at the end of the day that really is all I care about. I want people to have their own definitions and idea's and plots and stories. And I want people to know what the Red Ajah is about... And at this point? It's about discovering, defining, and becoming an Ajah of forward, open-minded, grey-area thinkers that like to challenge the social norm. They can fit into ANY Ajah. There are Healers in Green. Philosophers in Blue. Diplomats in Indigo... It's not always the color of the shawl that matters, but how they define it from within that Ajah. It's why I'm so against a specific, forced purpose...

That being said.. if the Ajah dies... it dies. Its the nature of using the creation of a new Ajah as a plot more than as to fill a void missed in the other Ajahs. I'm not disagreeing with even a portion of what you guys are saying... but as far as I sit... I like what we are, what we are becoming, and have no inclination of rushing it when I'd much rather use it as plot.

[Sunny]

Not all that serve the shadow are bad, and not all that serve the light are good. And I really liked the idea of creating a character.. and then now an Ajah that protected the balance between them both.

By condoning "bad" actions, the Red Ajah is *inviting* true Shadow followers in. It's the devil's playground in every way- they don't have to even PRETEND to be nice about what they do, they aren't held back by the Oath Rod, and (currently) they are physically isolated from the rest of the Tower. Based on the canon facts of how the Shadow works, that is a recipe for disaster, and there's no way the Hall would allow such an environment to remain inside their Tower. In essence, the Ajah cannot believably continue to exist as is without being torn apart in one way or another.

That is the primary reason why I feel that that the current "core" of the Red Ajah is not sustainable. Others in this thread have expressed similar concerns, and we have all expressed thoughts on how to morph it into something that would work better. It's pretty clear something is not quite working for others, and therefore....a change is necessary.

The question then is not "Do we change" but rather "how do we change." I've offered one suggestion already; tomorrow I'll go through, reread, and see if I can find a common strand. Off the top of my head it seems to be the channeling focus, but a reread will help.

An Ajah that is learning to discover a place in the Tower, IC (and OOC), while trying to stay true to themselves, to each other, the Tower without becoming something they are fighting against?

This can happen AND as an OOC group we can decide on a sustainable purpose for the Ajah to work towards IC. They are not mutually exclusive.

It's about discovering, defining, and becoming an Ajah of forward, open-minded, grey-area thinkers that like to challenge the social norm.

I started this discussion because, like other posters in this thread, I have problems with that definition, and want it to change. I have not seen you actually address that concern yet, only state again "This is how I made it."

That being said.. if the Ajah dies... it dies.

[...]

I like what we are, what we are becoming, and have no inclination of rushing it when I'd much rather use it as plot.

That first line is distressing. I started this discussion so we can work together to prevent that eventuality from happening. Additionally, no one here is suggesting that we rush anything. We're talking together to find a mutually enjoyable and acceptable way to rework the structure of the Red Ajah so that in the long run, it will continue to be a success. Both the discussion and the RP aspect of it will take time. It may even take a Hall vote, depending on how divided the talk is, and how big the changes end up being. I am definitely not expecting results tomorrow, by any means.