The Grey Tower

I specifically like the ideas expressed in Trent's first post. They seem very clear. If Jaryd were explaining it, he could do so in a line or two and move on, the way Alanna explained Green to Egwene.

I am not as much a fan of the "save humanity from itself" distillation of those ideas. I think that allows the problems I have with the current arrangement to live on and fester. It's not an unsolvable problem, but it is a problem.

Marla, could you explain your ideas a little more please? The gist that I got from Trent's first post was that Reds could focus on fighting other channelers, as well as spying on rival organizations such as Whitecloaks or the other two towers.

Also, what are your thoughts on fighting or preventing the abuse of power? This goal is still a reasonable incentive for Red members to learn how to fight other channelers (to prevent the abuse of the One Power), as well as a reason to spy (watch/investigate to make sure people with power aren't abusing it) which will still allow Jaryd to do his things. And I can see this goal as being a solid cause of the Light.

Ooh! I can use one of those things that school keeps beating into my head! Or at least, attempt to. >.>

Conceptualization and Operationalization. As an example: Intelligence is a concept. What is it? Good question. It depends. An IQ test is a operationalization of that concept - it makes an immeasurable thing, well, measurable. Of course, how you decide to measure your concept can affect how the whole thing winds up being defined and yadda yadda quack quack - BUT this is what I immediately thought of when I was reading this.

Conceptualization: Save Humanity from itself.
Operationalization:

Trent wrote: Some ideas of possible focus areas as I read this could be one or more of the following:
- The one that jumps immediately to mind, that is somewhat similar to White Tower book canon, is the fighting of channelers. Not so much the hunting of. Most people would turn to the Greens for battle weaves, but many Greens focus their learning on more military, "I'm an artillery cannon," type weaves. We don't have anyone necessarily that completely specializes in, say, fighting a Dreadlord, a Black Ajah member, or even a Forsaken. Some Greens and others do, but no Ajah is focused on it. There are very specific weaves and tactics one uses in fighting another channeler that one could easily devote their entire life to practicing, and those are very different than most traditional Battleweaves.

- Spymasters & Investigators. Instead of focusing on the negative side of espionage(assassination), why not think of someone to infiltrate the Whitecloak leadership so we know of their movements, someone to infiltrate a member of either other Tower. The Blues are good at gathering their own informant networks, but this would be an entirely different level altogether. Also, if there's a murder at the Tower, the Blues will often 'prosecute,' but who are the investigators? The Reds could make a mean Sherlock Holmes. This would give First Inquisitor a very solid foundation from either side.

*cough* excuse the nerd *cough*

So, conceptually, I'm seeing that the Red seeks to bring balance / save humanity from itself / ect. Concretely, down on the individual level, this looks like Reds are human fulcrums. Which would be very Gray, except Trent's ideas really add a nice, not afraid to get your hands too dirty attitude. I think both these ideas work together. Conceptually, that's ideal... Concretely, things don't usually go perfectly for role-play characters.

I sort of wish we had an active Gray around here to poke at.... It's difficult to try and properly differentiate between two things without that perspective. It's balance, but not... Peace / Political balance. I'll leaf through thesaurus and continue to chew.

Sorry guys, I've been super scattered all day long. I'm going to read back over what's happened today, and reassess my opinion.

Okay, so I didn't actually get a chance to do an in-depth thought process thing.

re: Trent's suggestions.

I like the idea of our focus being on fighting/defending against channelers. Not just on tracking down "Rogue" channelers, but on actually winning confrontations with channelers.

I like that idea for several reasons.

1) It's an extension of the canon definition, and therefore it's easy to explain to newcomers to the site. "We took the purpose and skills of the original Red Ajah, and expanded on it."

2) The GT faces multiple channeling threads: Black Ajah, Dreadlords, and Forsaken; the White Tower; the Black Tower; and the Seanchan. Not all of those threats are actually 'rogue'. Not all are actually Shadow, but they ARE all threats, and it makes *good* sense to have a standing body of people trained in how to deal with them....especially since in some cases they would have to do so while being restricted by the Oaths.

I think the idea of being information gatherers / spymasters ties into that nicely. You can't fight the White Tower on strength alone, for example; you have to fight on their level, which means spying and intrigue.


Now I've thought about it, it's not that "saving the world from itself" is inherently a bad thing. It's more that (in my opinion) it is too broad. It could be said that it applies to all of the Ajahs, and thus I hesitate to "give" it to just one.

Yellows save the world from itself by literally healing the damage inflicted on the world, by the world
Whites save the world from itself by working to educate people on the ever-changing definitions of "right" and "wrong," because without those definitions, the world would rip itself apart without a second thought.
Greys save the world from itself by using negotiation, diplomacy, and political awareness to end wars before they begin
Browns save the world from itself by learning about new things and preserving existing knowledge, thus preventing the cycle of ignorance > fear > hate > discord > war > death.
Blues save the world from itself one disparate cause at a time, each member convinced that their cause is of paramount importance.
Indigos save the world from itself by studying *Angreal and Talents, because those peculiar things give channelers the ability to solve the very problems that they've caused in the past.
Greens save the world from itself by learning tactics and strategy for offense and defense, because they know the Last Battle will turn north to south and east to west unless someone is there to guide the chaos.

And, finally, the Reds could save the world from itself by learning how to end conflict between channelers that would otherwise tear it apart.

See what I mean?





All that said, the one big set back to this plan of facing off against channelers IS the Three Oaths. It can certainly be pursued even with the Oaths, but I could see an argument in the future for removing or altering the second and/or third one. Such a thing would have interesting ramifications...though maybe not entirely *bad* ones, it would still be a big change.

Honestly, I like this as a good start. Yes the defined "saving the world from itself" is rather broad, but it's backed up with at least some "Operationalization". It is something to work with..

I'd like to try that as a starting point for a while and see how it works IC and OCC for a few months.. and if the broad-ness of it is too much, then we can relook at it? I don't want to hammer out everything now.. but we have a lot to go on and it so far sits well enough with all of us. And it gives us a chance to build it more IC giving us a stronger foundation.

Ei: Lets make a Big RP for the Reds with this concept and build on that and see where we all fit as a group.

Thank you Becky for giving me the vocabulary I need to separate the two facets to this discussion.

What I am asking for -what multiple people have asked for- is a shift away from the vague conceptualization of the Ajah and a shift towards the operationalization. We have also all expressed a concern with the current operationalization of the Ajah, and requested that it change. We have also all provided feedback and suggestions on what it could change to.

I have noticed that you have refused to engage with that discussion, in one way or another, and subtly insisted on keeping things the same. It's getting frustrating.

I don't actually care what the conceptualization is at this point. I care what Jaryd's feet in the street are going to be doing. I care about he and Carra giving a unified and tangible message to novices and soldiers that isn't going to result in them getting stilled or their Ajah being bombarded with Darkfriends.

"We're saving the world from itself" does not suit that bill. "We keep balance and may do right things that are not good" does not suit that bill. "We fight channelers and seek out information" DOES suit that bill.

Does that make my position clearer?

In some aspect, yes. My brain isn't letting me function full concepts and it's making it hard to really get a point across. Like, I have such a painful stupid right now that it's fairly soul sucking and depressing.

But I like what Trent said. I like what Becky did with the break down. And I like that it gives a stronger direction that we didn't have before in a way that I was struggling to get across. And i don't know how you missed me saying so, but that's kinda where I sit because my stupid brain is doing fuck all to help add to the convo without me emotionally feeling like i'm just being run over without having anything worthwhile adding when I probably should.

Basically: I agree. lets do this. the general direction of the convo is good... lets try it.

Conceptualization #1: End conflict between channelers
Conceptualization #2: Prevent abuse of power
Conceptualization #3: Seeking out information

Operationalizations
#1: We've talked about this a lot. I don't think the Three Oaths will constrain the Red. My main concern is that ending conflict, as Becky pointed out, seems to be very Grey.

#2: This goal makes sense for Red members to learn how to fight other channelers (to prevent the abuse of the One Power, like the Seanchan and Dreadlords), and a reason to spy (watch/investigate to make sure people with power aren't abusing it). This one is my favorite because it has an idealistic aura that I just like. When Carra said this in one of her previous posts, I thought it was a super cool idea.

#3: This one doesn't seem to make sense because every Ajah has an eyes-and-ears network. It also seems very similar to the Brown.

Perhaps some of these ideas can be combined? Again, I'm a fan of #2. Perhaps it could be folded in with #1. What do you think?

Jenny, you are quite good at this. I am taking notes.... Seriously :p


The connection between abuse of power and fighting channelers makes sense now.

I think to me the difference between this and gray is that gray tries to avoid conflict altogether, whereas red would be acknowledging that conflict will happen no matter what, and learning how to directly engage that threat.

In a way it's actually more Green like than anything, but with the specific objective I think it can work. Carra can keep her awesome stealth ninja work, Jaryd can be more in your face, Liri can do her thing.... It works.