The evolution of the Red Ajah

[Sunny]

I had originally brought this up with the admin team, but now this forum exists, I think this is a good place to continue.

I am a little concerned about the long-term viability of the Red Ajah as it stands.

If I have learned anything from working in change management, it's that the best ideas come from the amalgamation of thoughts from many minds. Therefore, I'm here to suggest some things that I would like to see, in hopes of opening a discussion that will allow us to develop into an Ajah that will stand the test of time even after Carra and I are long gone.

My primary concerns are:

- How can we formulate the Ajah's purpose to be sustainable in the long run?
- Why would an aspirant choose us over Grey, Blue, Green, or even White?
- Where do we live (in a permanent sense) ?

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Currently, our library page states that we hunt rogue channelers, but the reality as it was explained to Jaryd in his Ajah Exploration is that we're actually more about maintaining balance between Light and Shadow, and that the ends justify the means. It was also stated that the Ajah sets aside personal issues and instead focuses on the global problems at hand. That concept definitely appealed to Jaryd's personality; he's always been a "screw the rules if they get in the way" kind of a person. It made sense for him to choose Red in the moment.

However....as a player and a WoT fan I don't think either of the stated purposes are sustainable over a long time frame. Realistically speaking, if our Red Ajah existed as-is in the books, it would become a crawling cesspool of Darkfriends and villainy. The added "bonus" of being (currently) physically separated from the rest of the Ajahs only increases the odds of such an eventuality (or an all-out Tower civil war) occurring. I'm not really a big fan of such a fate, personally. =P

My rough / incomplete thought for a "solution" was to shift the purpose of the Ajah. Basically, my thought was that each member of the Red Ajah would have an objective that a) they hyper-focus on hunting down (much like the canon Reds did with hunting down male channelers), and b) will never actually be fully met in their life time.

Examples:

Carra hunts for balance between Light and Shadow
Jaryd hunts for hungry children and feeds them (This is an example only, I'm still figuring out his schtick)
Jane Doe hunts for and releases damane
John Smith hunts for men who can channel

In essence, they all share a common driving NEED to change the world in their own way, and they do it one small *active* piece at a time.

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To move onto my second question, if the Ajah were structured the way I described:

It would be different from Blue because on this site, the Blues are much more focused on justice than they are in the books, AND their causes are not generally speaking a life-long endeavor. They also tend to be more general ("end world hunger") whereas the Reds are more specific, but never-ending ("Make sure that child has food. Okay, now make sure that child has food. And that child. And that child").

It would be different from Grey and White because although law and philosophy may play a part in hunting, the focus of the Red would be on action, versus negotiation or thought.

It would be different from Green because the Green Ajah is primarily focused on preparing for the Last Battle, and not every Red hunt would have to be battle focused at all, let alone have anything to do with Tarmon Gai'don.

I think the differences between it and Brown, Indigo, and Yellow are pretty obvious.

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Finally, the third question...

This one is hard for me. The Red Ajah is currently in the basement, and I understand the logic of it as temporary quarters, but I don't think it could or should be maintained long term. Carra posted an IC Hall post a while back proposing to build an entirely separate structure for the Reds...but the problem is that Jaryd would stand against it. He spent his time as a Dedicated studying law; he knows the Red Ajah needs to be physically integrated with and politically equal to the rest of the Ajahs or there will be endless strife between it and the rest of the Tower. Even if he wasn't a Sitter, as half of the existing Ajah his opinion would still bear considerable weight, and I don't see how construction could conceivably go forward without his approval.

Out of character, my objections to such a structure are much the same as his- the Red Ajah needs to be integrated with and equal to all the others, or IC there will be big trouble down the line. However, I also think they need to be treated exactly the same because it's easier for writers to remember.

My proposed solution is that we utilize the archive of Aes Sedai and Aaha'man we have at our disposal, and Earthsing an eighth piece of "Ajah pie" into the Grey Tower. We have the power and the skill, and it would solve all of the IC political issues.



I hope that people, generally speaking, will take the time to read and respond with their own ideas, questions, and observations. Now I'm off to bed.

[Jenny]

I share many of your concerns, especially because I have similar concerns for the Blue Ajah. I have also noticed this lack of distinction for the Blue. I pushed these concerns to the back of my mind by telling myself that a channeler is not defined by his/her Ajah. Perhaps each person may find that their Ajah speaks to them differently.

But a better way to deal with this problem is to discuss it. Warning: spoilers below.

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Addressing the first and second concern

I still feel that the difference between Blues and Reds is not very clear. A Blue’s cause may be general (“ending world hunger”), but it is achieved one step at a time (“feeding one child at a time”). In that light, I don’t see much difference. Also, many Blues have endeavors that are life-long. Moiraine spends nearly two decades searching for Rand, and spends the rest of her time serving him.

In addition, “maintaining a balance between the Light and the Shadow, and that the ends justify the means” is something that Moiraine expresses many times throughout the series. She is always lecturing Rand about balance. She also goes against Tower law, setting herself and Siuan on the path to stilling, to protect Rand. When some of the sisters in the “loyalist” faction of the Tower gather to secretly search for the Black Ajah, they also break rules, for example, using the Oath Rod. This also embodies “the end justifies the means.” I feel that this sentiment is something that is a personal quality and moral decision, not an Ajah-specific one.

I agree with all your points on the Green, Grey, and White.

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Ideas

My personal impression after reading A Memory of Light is that the Red Ajah becomes involved in studying what happens when there is a bond between male and female channelers (see Pevara and Androl). This can already be a really interesting facet in Carra and Jaryd’s relationship. I still really like the idea that the Red Ajah hunts down rogue channelers because Pevara mentions practicing to fight other channelers. But I also think a really exciting potential for the Red Ajah is for their channelers to become experts in working with the opposite side of the Power.

I do not mean that every Red should bond a channeler of the opposite sex, or that only Reds can bond a channeler of the opposite sex. But, the study of weaving with both saidar and saidin can be a focus of their study. Just as Healing is not restricted to only Yellows, and fighting/bonding Warders is not restricted to the Greens, and Traveling is not restricted to the Greys – but these are just focuses of their study, and where the greatest experts can be found.

The two Powers are very dissimilar – yet working together, they can achieve greatness. Weaving them together should require years of study, just as weaving them independently does.

And so, my suggestion is this: the goals of the Red can become 1) to hunt down rogue channelers, perhaps including damane, and thus train to fight other channelers, 2) to study the opposite half of the One Power, 3) become experts in bonding and linking and circles that involve both men and women channelers.

Thus, legendarily large circles would probably be lead by a Red. I think these could be unique and sustainable purposes.

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I completely agree with all of your points about your third question. It makes perfect sense to bring the Red Ajah into the Halls with the other Ajahs. It's fiction; we can easily disregard the real-world difficulties of inserting another slice into a pie. With all the Earthsingers here, I’m sure they would be happy to be part of a legendary feat.

[Sunny]

I like your ideas a lot, and I'm SO happy you posted!

I do see one set back with that idea, but it's based on GT canon rather than book canon: The function you're describing has been primarily served by the GT's Indigo Ajah until this point. They study objects of the One Power, Talents, and channeling in general, and they recruit new channelers, as well. In GT history, the male and female members of the Ajah have worked together to create a great deal of amazing things, the physical Grey Tower included.

That's not to say the Red Ajah can't do something similar, but I think we'd then run into the same issue with Indigo that we're running into with Blue and Grey...

What do you think? I tend to think in black and white (can do / can't do...I'm learning to see gray, I promise! ), and I'm in a rush so I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. I like the way you laid all your thoughts out in your last post though, so you can probably see things I can't. ^_^

[Waymon]

I’m glad this was brought up in the public forums as it allows me to get clear and concise answers on something that I find important as to the path of Casten.

I’ll try to follow your question order, explain as much as I can, and try not to repeat. Also I do not fully know the complete history of the Grey Tower so these concerns of mine may easily be put to bed.

About the purpose of the Red Ajah:

I come from a writing group that I had written with for a good numbers of years that had this same issue with the Reds and they decided to make the Reds of that writing group the ‘hunters’ of the Items of Power a role assumed by the Indigos here at the Grey Tower. When I first join I was very excited by the prospect that I could have Casten any of the Ajahs and I was well pleased that the Reds were not excluded from that list.

However I personally found that what was listed as their focus was… muddled. It turned me away from wanting to join the fledgling Ajah simply because I couldn’t grasp the reasoning behind its conception. From the description it seems almost the Reds were forced into the role that attempts to keep with canon as ‘hunters’ but then looks like to wants to be assassins with One Power flair. The Tower, with its wealth, power, and prestige surely should have a group of highly trained warriors to go off whomever the Hall sends them after. Why would the Tower place an asset such as a sister or brother that’s such a rare and expensive to train commodity in peril in such a manner? The logistics should be taken into account.

Also it would almost certainly rail against the Black and White Towers as they, the Reds of the Grey Tower, could be offing someone of their ranks that’s undercover (no intelligence is perfect so mistakes are bound to happen). Additionally to enforce the Grey Tower’s particular morals and laws in other countries would violate their sovereignty which would also not be good. They would hit the Tower in the wallet instead of making war. Not to mention the White Cloaks could use their antics to bring more people if not countries to their banner as the Grey Tower just runs around enforcing their ways on the Westlands.

I don’t think Marla’s is the best answer as to how to re-focus the Reds. I understand the rationale behind it however I also think that the Reds are being forced into the more canon role. That stated I don’t have an alternative to give at this moment so I would lean that way right now. Maybe they can look for new threats or focus solely on investigating those suspected of the Black Ajah or accused Darkfriends? To keep in line with the HoA’s First Inquisitor title and give them a publicly acceptable reason to be out in the world and investigating folk.

I think my wall of text took care of the first two questions but now to address the third.

What makes these Reds so special and shiny that the Hall would approve of a completely new expensive building exclusively for the Reds? They are the newest and smallest Ajah. It would make little sense ICly to do such a thing. Also I’m given to understand now that the Reds were placed into the basement as a temporary holding and a solution must be found but the building of a new building isn’t the answer. I agree with Marla in the aspect that all Ajahs should be treated in the same manner and afforded the same privileges and responsibilities.

There’s two active characters on the site that have Earthsinging as a Talent, and one is a five dot Latent. Also massive circles are a thing in addition to the large OP strength the cast of characters here have so far. So while initially I discarded Marla’s proposal of raising the Tower for the reason that it wouldn’t work due to the scale of the project but after looking at the Talents and OP strength charts, it’s at minimum conceivable but in all likelihood the answer that would be solution. Also it would make for a really good IC Hall discussion and a Tower-wide event that even us newbies could join in. *eyebrow wiggle*

If I need to clarify anything that I said please let me know.

As Jenny posted before I finished typing these. I really enjoyed her answer in regards to her proposed shift in focus. Good job!

[Jenny]

Thank you both for the kind compliments!

This is what I found in the FAQ for the Indigo Ajah on the old website:

"The Indigo Ajah is devoted to the study of Talents and objects of the One Power. This covers a lot of ground; Indigos have been known to study everything from the expression of Talents to re-discovering Lost Talents to finding new ones. The members of this Ajah also study and often create ter'angreal. The Indigos are additionally responsible for maintaining the Storerooms of the Tower and studying various angreal and sa'angreal. Most Asha'man and Aes Sedai who study objects of the Power are members of this Ajah."

It does not mention working saidar and saidin together. And so far, it has seemed to me that the Indigo is more focused on Objects of power and Talents that affect these Objects (such as creating ter'angreal or Aligning the Matrix), while the Red could be more focused on the relationships and unique bond that male and female channelers can share. This includes Pevara's discovery that she could channel even while in a circle lead by Androl, which is absolutely amazing, or studying their near-telepathy.

I do not know enough of GT history to figure out how this would fit in with the GT timeline. Since this is a "new" Ajah, perhaps it wouldn't matter, but I'd have to do more reading before I can decide.

Of course, there could be other solutions. Perhaps we could spend a few days brainstorming first and gather a list of ideas before discussing their merits.

[Carra]

Well, the main thing about focusing on how the male and female channeler's work together.... is a moot point. A good one, but completely useless. The Grey Tower has been standing (IC) for 200 years with males and females channeling side by side, bonding, etc for at least that long. And i'll admit when I originally came up with the Red Ajah that the idea of studying it it wasn't want I wanted.

I'm just waking up, and I had asked Marla to post this here instead of admin... But I'm actually a little upset that the concept of the Red Ajah has been a little overlooked.

"Protectors of Humanity" Is the basis of how I grew the idea. The fact that my Character saw no room in her for the Politics of the Blue, the Brashness and battle-orientated of the Green... and basically nothing from Indigo. (She isn't a fan, but hey! that's a character thing)... and in the end she knew that Creating the Red Ajah and making the Tower Whole (as she saw it), it was important for her to re-build the friendships she shunned in her lower ranks. Being Amyrlin sort of forced me and her to put a lot of what she saw for the ajah aside.


I personally am a fan of the basement. It's the "heart" of the Tower, and the IC time it would take to make adding an 8th wing didn't feel plausable. Not when we were focusing so hard on just rebuilding the Tower OOC. but if everyone is set to give the red's the wing... well... I think Carra will still find her solace in her fireplace, second hand settee and a cup of tea far down below the gardens. *shrugs* That's just the character though.

[Carra]

The hard part for me is that while the Ajah was started around my character, I knew going in the concept of the Red would shift with each new member. Eventually I have to let go of my baby. We're at two members with two (mostly) official aspirants. and each of them came to the Red Ajah more IC than OOC. The vision of the Red is mean to evolve and coming up with something solid has been pushed and pushed since day one. Personally I feel it's too soon. I want a few more raised Reds to really sit down and decide what Red is for US instead of forcing an ideal that doesn't work.

[Siera]

I agree with Carra here. I want to see the Ajah grow organically, and yes the conversation may help but I think doing things IC is going make the Ajah grow in a better way then having us sit here and chat about it. Yes the chat will help but I don't think the Ajah needs a new reason, maybe just additional explanation. Because Liri is aspiring Red because of that definition, not for any of the other ideas that have been put on the table. (No offence meant they are great ideas just not how I see Red).

This may not make a lot of sense and it's short since I'm at work but yeah.

[Sunny]

I feel that ongoing OOC discussion is a necessity, and that it really should have started a while back. It's needed so that the IC development can occur in a coherent, inclusive, and sustainable manner. It is not intended to replace, but rather to supplement.

Jaryd also aspired based on the balance idea. However, his perspective is shifting. What happens to the Ajah if/when he goes in one direction and Carra goes in another? What happens when I give one explanation and she gives another (IC or OOC)? That is why OOC discussion is important to me.

[Carra]

I think its important, whichever the Ajah, for the character to find their own niche or definition of what the Ajah means to them. It helps keep the in the spirit of the individual and will make for a more diverse group. And if Jaryd and Carra have different ways of looking at the Ajah, then GOOD. Not everyone see's green one way, or the blue ajah as one way.. or any other ajah. Ues the core is generally the same but the interpretation is mean to be different for each character. Otherwise it gets boring, and most likely why Red is so popular. It gives voice to those that don't fit in those other groups, under the ideals of Balance, Humanity and doing what is right even if it isn't always good. And it's what I love about how the Red is developing to date.